Curse

Blame the Monks · Mar 16, 2007, 10:36 PM // 22:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patrick Smit

@ Blame the monks, the art of fixing unused/useless skills is to fix them in a balanced way, not to overpower them and therefore become possibly a gimmick. It should be interesting to use, not irresistable.

Read ensign's post defining a gimmick. Many skills in this game are inherently, conceptually flawed and should NOT be balanced to the point they are used. This is one of them.

Patrick Smit · Mar 16, 2007, 10:56 PM // 22:56

I don't really see the point that a hex with a possible KD effect can be abused. Wastrels worry is not (ab)used either. Admit that the 5 seconds is a tad long, wasterls worry only requires 3 secs before the effect takes place, and is thus quite easily removed. If not damage is limited. a KD is even more limited in damage, zero. Lightning surge also has a 3 sec delay and is not being abused either, while shatterstone is having effect when removed, it still damages. None of these skills are being abused, though can be used constructively. Gale is being used, has a direct KD and therefore not avoidable. Is it flawed? It's not even an elite. I don't think small increases will raise this skill to become a gimmick, or is water trident since the last buff also a gimmick?

NOI, just to discuss that small increases can make something viable, but not automatically a gimmick. The hex is such that u can't spike with it, so thats already a plus.

ABout ensigns post on gimmicks, is it here or elsewhere? I guess i missed it, and i excuse myself if so.

Patccmoi · Mar 16, 2007, 11:11 PM // 23:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blame the Monks

Read ensign's post defining a gimmick. Many skills in this game are inherently, conceptually flawed and should NOT be balanced to the point they are used. This is one of them.

I don't really see what your point is here honestly. The thread IS about fixing the skill. Fixing meaning not only change the energy cost or recharge, but make it so that it is worthwhile and not necessarily gimmicky.

Take the suggestion i gave, meaning you hex for 5s and it kds if they don't use a skill but the skill goes on 20s additional recharge if it ends the hex.

Now, compare it to Diversion (and please don't tell me that Diversion is gimmicky being about the most versatile skill in the game, good against absolutely every single build in one way or another). The difference is that it lasts 1s shorter, but knocks if there was no skill used (meaning you basically had a 7s lockdown vs 6s for Diversion). It's cheaper and casts faster, making it elite worthy, but the additional recharge to the skill is just 20s because a penalty on the scale of Diversion would just be way too powerful with 1s cast time (since you can pretty much throw it in the middle of a skill to trigger the effect, especially Me/A). But even if you can throw it in the middle of a skill it's not exactly broken cause you could as well DShot the skill then and give the same additional recharge AND interrupt.

So basically, it becomes a small mix of DShot and Diversion, with a kd which insures that SOMETHING will come out of the hex every time (either you send a skill on recharge or they're knocked).

Imo, it's absolutely not gimmicky and on the other hand becomes a very useful general counter elite that i could definitely see myself use (especially on Me/A, as i said it is a Mesmer type of spell in the end). But i don't feel that it's truly overpowered considering it's an elite either, maybe it would be worth 10E if it's too strong used along with Diversion but that's about it.

A skill that is useful in any kind of setup against any kind of build because it's just a general counter doesn't fit into the gimmicky category at all imo. If your idea to fix it though is 'after 5s, they fall dead' then yes it becomes a stupid gimmick, but the point of the thread is to fix a skill, not break itRED ENGINE GO.

Riotgear · Mar 17, 2007, 02:26 AM // 02:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patrick Smit

Wastrels worry is not (ab)used either.

Not every skill is designed for GvG. The game is loaded with skills that are easy to counter, but very effective when used on people or teams who don't tend to bring those counters. Call them "introductions" to the game.

InfernalSuffering · Mar 17, 2007, 02:44 AM // 02:44

Wastrel's Collapse
Elite, Assassin
No attribute - Hex
10/1/15
After 10 seconds, if target foe has moved, they are knocked down.

:I notice this is basically a remodeling of the skill, but it sticks with the kd idea and it fits in with the name:

skillsbas8 · Mar 17, 2007, 06:14 AM // 06:14

10/1/15
No attribute - hex

For 4 seconds, the next spell target foe casts fails, and that foe is knocked down.

Synergy with deadly paradox?
I don't know, some things need more than a makeover.

Shmanka · Mar 17, 2007, 06:55 AM // 06:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by skillsbas8

10/1/15
No attribute - hex

For 4 seconds, the next spell target foe casts fails, and that foe is knocked down.

Synergy with deadly paradox?
I don't know, some things need more than a makeover.

Personally I do like this the most, and a few others but this would be somewhat overpowered with deadly paradox on a mesmer.

Guys I like alot of the suggestions we are on the right track, the prize isn't too huge but I think it gives a good incentive to actually think about these things.

I would also like to have the movement more suttle in its commentary. I would love for this thread to stay open so my guild and I, Lionguard Academy[LA] can have a small event with this message board community.

Kyune · Mar 17, 2007, 09:30 AM // 09:30

Wastrel's Collapse

10e 1/4th cast 20s recharge
Elite Hex

Shadow step to target foe. For 5 seconds, the next time target foe would use a skill, it fails and that foe is knocked down. When Wastrel's Collapse ends, return to your original location.

The most imba I can see it being in a single player situation is if it's used by an assassain who is already upon their target since the shadow step upon ending won't take the asn very far away.

As for the multiplayer situation...well, that I am not certain of. Kiting would certainly be the best option in an asn + extras versus hexed foe situation.

Corinthian · Mar 17, 2007, 09:58 AM // 09:58

Wastrel's Collapse

5e 1c 2r - unlinked

Target foe is hexed with Wastrel's Collapse for 5 seconds. If target foe uses a skill this hex is renewed. Unless removed, when this hex ends target foe is knocked down.

Turbobusa · Mar 17, 2007, 10:43 AM // 10:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Corinthian

Wastrel's Collapse

5e 1c 2r - unlinked

Target foe is hexed with Wastrel's Collapse for 5 seconds. If target foe uses a skill this hex is renewed. Unless removed, when this hex ends target foe is knocked down.

I like

kyune, you basically made another shadow prison.

InfernalSuffering · Mar 17, 2007, 02:44 PM // 14:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Corinthian

Wastrel's Collapse

5e 1c 2r - unlinked

Target foe is hexed with Wastrel's Collapse for 5 seconds. If target foe uses a skill this hex is renewed. Unless removed, when this hex ends target foe is knocked down.

That would be killer. Have your mesmer/sin just spam it on their entire team while they retreat in a gvg so they all get kded in the coral or the fire...I like it otherwise but perhaps 5e 1c 10r?

Mercury Angel · Mar 17, 2007, 05:18 PM // 17:18

Wastrel's Collapse {E} - 5en, 1/4th cast, 15 recharge
Elite Skill
Must follow a dual attack. If target foe is not using a skill, that foe is knocked down.

Conditional, though not excessively so, potent, and I'd hope that the anti-synergy of working with an attack skill would prevent being insane with Deadly Paradox, but if it's broken, that's more of a problem with Deadly Paradox, I believe.
Perhaps a 10 energy cost, but the inability to disrupt skill use, as unconditional knockdowns do, already makes it basically a more surgical/precise Water Trident. No damage, and longer recharge, but faster cast and no projectile delay.
If it became problematic, a half range clause might work well, though.

around · Mar 17, 2007, 07:41 PM // 19:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mercury Angel

Wastrel's Collapse {E} - 5en, 1/4th cast, 15 recharge
Elite Skill
Must follow a dual attack. If target foe is not using a skill, that foe is knocked down.

Conditional, though not excessively so, potent, and I'd hope that the anti-synergy of working with an attack skill would prevent being insane with Deadly Paradox, but if it's broken, that's more of a problem with Deadly Paradox, I believe.
Perhaps a 10 energy cost, but the inability to disrupt skill use, as unconditional knockdowns do, already makes it basically a more surgical/precise Water Trident. No damage, and longer recharge, but faster cast and no projectile delay.
If it became problematic, a half range clause might work well, though.

This is probably my favourite fix.

Living Parasite · Mar 17, 2007, 08:26 PM // 20:26

Wastrel's Collapse
Elite, Assasin
No attribute
5/.75/2
After 5 seconds, target foe is knocked down for 3 seconds. This Hex ends prematurely if that foe uses a Skill.

TheOneMephisto · Mar 17, 2007, 10:21 PM // 22:21

Wastrel's Collapse
5/1/10
Elite Hex Spell. After 5 seconds, target foe is knocked down. If target foe uses a skill, instead of being knocked down, target foe's movement speed is slowed by 66% for (1...6) seconds.

rogue-cloud · Mar 18, 2007, 07:46 PM // 19:46

Wastrel's Collapse
10 Energy, 1/4 sec cast, 15 recharge

After 5 seconds, target foe is knocked down. If that foe uses a skill this hex ends prematurely and that foe is knocked down.

wren e · Mar 19, 2007, 09:54 AM // 09:54

Wastrels Collapse
10e/1s cast/ 15s recharge

Target is hexxed with Wastrels Collapse. After 5 secs Wastrels Collapse ends and target is knocked down for 3 seconds. Wastrels Collapse ends prematurely if target uses a skill and that skill then has 30 second longer recharge.

Reasoning behind the changes. In my opinion, an elite skill should be worth its spot on a skill bar. As it is wastrels collapse is just a very substandard skill. There is no punishment to the target for using a skill to keep from getting knocked down. With the change that I purpose, it introduces a consequence and makes this skill have more utility and uses which GW could always use more viable options like this.

HolyHawk · Mar 19, 2007, 02:04 PM // 14:04

Humm, I can't think another way than making it more mesmerly. Perhaps making the way around would make it more usable, or maybe too strong.

Wastrel's Collapse - Elite Hex Spell - Shadow Arts, 50% failure with shadow arts bellow 7, 5e, 1 sec casting, 8 recharge (similar to hidden caltrops)

Target foe is hexed with wastrel's collapse for 5 seconds. If target foe USES a skill while under the effects of this hex, target for is knocked down.

My reasoning is that you still have a trigger for the black skills, however it's interruptable, will force the use of another shadow step skill, will not replace shadow prison, generally speaking, and will work like diversion. In other words, nothing actually happens if target can run, or if attackers have no speed boost, shadow step, etc. Can be significantly powerfull in a duo combination, so I'm not sure.

Patccmoi · Mar 19, 2007, 02:57 PM // 14:57

I like the idea of making it follow a dual attack, but i think it's a little too late in the chain to matter.

Here's some additional ideas :

5/.25/12

Must follow an off-hand attack. If target foe isn't using a skill, that foe is knocked down.

This way it's not something any class can abuse at will since it needs some dagger combo, or at least some deadly arts skills. It could make for an interesting Deadly Arts combo. The risk being Deadly Paradox though.

Or:

10/1/12, Deadly Arts

Must follow an off-hand attack. Target foe takes 15..39..47 damage. If target foe isn't using a skill, that foe is knocked down and takes an additional 15..39..47 damage. This skill counts as a dual attack.

Why? So that you can finally complete a dual attack with a spell. This way you could do full Deadly Arts combos, even using Impale. You could use it fairly often with Deadly Paradox, but at 10E it'd likely cost too much to keep it up since Deadly Arts has no emanagement for spells (which is a shame). But imo it'd give a nice buff to the Deadly Arts line. I don't think the damage is out of line, it's about what a dual attack from daggers does without the base dagger damage.

Note that it WOULD make for a nasty spike assist (pre offhand in one way or another, then throw WC-Impale) but the fact that you have to pre-offhand your target prevents it from being too abusable imo. The target being hit by an offhand can easily call for some prot).

Shendaar · Mar 19, 2007, 03:13 PM // 15:13

I see a lot of "Target foe is knocked when using a skill" variant. But how exactly would it work? Would it "interrupt" the skill and KD the target or would just KD after the skill has activated.

The problem I see with WC, is that if you make it too good, every mesmer is gonna use it along with Diversion and the rest. The fact that it has no attributes makes it a very hard skill to balance imo.

edit : I like your idea Patccmoi. BLS->WC>Impale certainly sounds like a fun combo.